Do you want to know how to grow your brand as a thought leader?
Listen in as Jason Van Orden shares his strategy for marketing and monetizing your expertise organically with content to build greater authority.
Do you want to know how to grow your brand as a thought leader?
Listen in as Jason Van Orden, Founder of Van Orden Marketing and Media LLC shares his strategy for marketing and monetizing your expertise organically with content to establish greater authority.
In this week's powerful episode "How to Best Grow Your Brand as a Thought Leader" you will discover…
And a whole lot more…
Susan Friedmann 00:00
Welcome to Book Marketing mentors the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas and tips from the masters.
Every week I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. Today, my special guest is Jason Van Orden. Jason helps authors, academics and speakers turn their expertise into new income streams, and build business models that align with their values and goals.
As a consultant, trainer and strategist, he draws from more than 17 years of experience, including creating multiple successful businesses, launching over 60 online courses, teaching more than 10,000 entrepreneurs, earning seven figures in online sales, and generating 8 million downloads of his podcast.
His mission is to help visionaries with impactful ideas to connect with the people they serve best, and the problems that they can most uniquely solve.
A new friend and colleague Jason, what an absolute pleasure it is to welcome you to the show. And thank you for being this week's guest expert and mentor.
Jason Van Orden 01:16
It's absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much, Susan.
Susan Friedmann 01:19
Good. Well, Jason, I had to go and have a look at your website and bang smack in talking about what you guys do is in big, bold letters grow a thought leader, brand and business that amplify your impact and income. I love it. Just one thing, how do we do that, too?
Jason Van Orden 01:43
Yeah, it's something I think about a lot, especially I love ideas. I'm curious about ideas personally. But I also believe because of the internet, there is this unprecedented ability now for ideas to reach the people who need them most. I imagine. That's exactly what many of the authors that you work with want to do, right? They want their ideas to reach the people that they can serve best, the problem that we naturally run into when you're creating a brand and a business around your ideas. And often that means around your expertise and the things that you do your knowledge and how you apply it. That can be a natural limitation placed upon the growth of your impact and income, because you are the product, anything simply about like coaching or consulting or service providers, common ways of that experts then make money from their ideas, there's only so much time and energy that you have to sell.
Jason Van Orden 02:36
And then there's also the need to reach a wider audience if you really want to grow that income and impact which means you've got to have that clarity in how you communicate so that the right audience immediately recognizes your message as both what I say is relevant and resonant at the same time relevant meaning it meets or solves or speaks to a primary needs challenge, unfulfilled goal, whatever that might be. And then resonant is that it is communicated in a way that they identify with, you know, they immediately want to like and trust you, and that the values that you infuse into the work and your knowledge and your expertise draws them in.
Jason Van Orden 03:16
So what I'm getting at here is that, you know, a lot of times, when you start a business like this, it is just you and maybe eventually have a couple people helping you assistance or whatever, but you you're selling your time in some way. And I found that there are three things that once you hit a ceiling on how much of that time you have to sell. And this is just a natural inflection point, then anybody in this type of business hits is that ceiling where it's like,
Okay, I can't serve any more people. Like if you think if three times or five times I have many more people showed up tomorrow wanting to work with you. There's a good chance, you know, a lot of people with Thought Leadership based businesses would have to turn them away simply because they don't have the capacity to meet the needs of those people to serve them to deliver the value of their services.
Susan Friedmann 03:58
Yeah, well, you're saying here and which is really, really critical, Jason. And that is the idea that it is just you I mean, it's me, myself and I in business. And if it's just you, there's only so much that you can do and so much that you can bring to your audience. So you're going to tell us how we can actually get our message and our expertise out there to more people in a way that is going to obviously build your thought leadership and that people see you for your expertise and your thought leadership. I apologize for stepping on your toes there, but keep going. Yeah, no,
Jason Van Orden 04:39
no problem. And now that we've presented this natural issue that shows up for this type of business, I've identified three areas that need to be evolved once you hit that inflection point in your business and evolving these three areas is what allows you to then communicate and deliver and monetize your expertise and thought leadership at scale. So the first area is your positioning. And so often when we start out with our expertise, we might serve a wide variety of people. And part of that might be because we're trying to figure out who we might be able to serve best part of it is just for cash flow issues where you know, a little bit more lenient or not as targeted with who we take in as clients. And that's kind of a necessity at first.
Jason Van Orden 05:20
But then, when you really want to go out there at scale, and I know this is something you talk about, so we don't need to dwell on this long, you've got to niche down, right, you've got to make it clear who it is that you serve best. And when people arrive, they've got to know immediate, it's like, Oh, you are the one that I have been looking for. And this is relevant and resonant to me, it's a counterintuitive thing of hey, to go bigger, I need to go more specific with my positioning, who I serve, how I serve them, why I serve them. So that's the first of the Yeah, the first
Susan Friedmann 05:46
things, I love that. I mean, the fact is that that whole niche marketing is so critical in the situation, that you know, knowing who you want to serve. And it's interesting, Jason to I was just in a workshop, and something that I had really not thought much about is, who don't I want to serve, and making a list of that group of people so that I get much more clarity on who I really want to serve and what their demographics are, etc.
Jason Van Orden 06:20
I'm sure you've heard some of the things I have that people have objections when you tell them this. And it's like, oh, well, I don't want to exclude people, right? I really want to help as many people as I can. But the truth is, you do help more people by being more specific about who you are uniquely positioned to serve and help in the world.
Susan Friedmann 06:34
Yeah, I call it fear of focus. Yeah, that's good to serve other people. Yeah.
Jason Van Orden 06:41
Right. That makes sense. So then the second thing that has to evolve or upgrade in your business model is your platform. And so often, when I start working with somebody at this point on their business, they've got a lot of wonderful things going on. Yeah, they're good at what they do. So they've got a bit of reputation, they probably get some referrals. In fact, that may be one of the primary ways that they bring people in, you know, they might do some speaking, sometimes they've dabbled in some digital marketing, they like might have like, Yeah, I do some stuff on LinkedIn, or have a little bit of a email list over here. But there are a few issues here. And that's just kind of a natural evolution, again, you're probably trying things out, you've been putting things together, it's gotten to where you want to go, but it's not going to get you to that next level.
Jason Van Orden 07:18
And so a couple of key things that need to be done with platform is, first of all, you need to create a platform that will at scale allow you to speak to more of the people that you want to reach. So if your primary way of finding clients is referrals, well that's really hard to scale that dependably, this means building your email list. Really, when you focus on building the email list. Now you have that group of people who are ready to do business with you, when you've got that offer to to bring to them, you've got to get off of dependent completely on stuff that you you can't control as much or on rented land as we sometimes call it. Like, you know, if you have a great LinkedIn following fine, but I've also seen those seen those LinkedIn followings disappear overnight for people because for whatever reason, LinkedIn changes their algorithm and you don't reach as many people or you know, an account gets shut down, or whatever the case might be.
Jason Van Orden 08:04
When it comes to upgrading your platform, you need to be thinking about, Okay, well, how can I create a scalable platform, and the email list is one of the core things there. And then the other thing to think about is okay, the channels that I do have, how do you strategically put that together and what we call a customer journey, which means taking them through three phases, you got to gain their attention, you got to earn their trust, and then you inspire them to buy, and different channels are good at each of those different areas. So you know, in gaining attention, and email, this might not be the best thing for immediately grabbing people's attention. Like those are the people that are more your inner circle. It's wonderful for earning trust. And it's wonderful for inspiring people to by putting a link in front of them.
Jason Van Orden 08:43
But for gaining attention, it's like okay, maybe that's where your your speaking comes in, or interviews on other people's podcasts, or the book is also a great place to gain attention. But then it's okay, how do we get people from that, that channel onto a channel such as a podcast or an email list, where I can really nurture that relationship with them earn their trust, start walking them down this path of understanding how my solution will help solve their pains and problems, it's about entering the conversation that's already going on in their mind, and then guiding it towards where they'll understand and believe that you're the person that they need to work with. And the solution that you offer is the best one for them. And that they should ideally be doing something about it now, and not some nebulous date later in their life, because it's going to cost them more not to work with you then to go ahead and invest the time and energy and working with you.
Jason Van Orden 09:28
So that's the platform is you got to build that email list and you got to plug together strategically your different channels, so that you're guiding people from your speaking gigs to your email list or you know, and then you know, on your podcast, listening to that, if you've got that and then eventually have that campaign or that funnel or whatever the case may be, that's going to prepare them to want to buy in inspire them to click that link and you know, book the call, buy into the program, purchase your course whatever the case may be. So that's the secondary and you might have noticed by now where these three areas are three P's, we've got the positioning, we've talked about platform. And then that brings us to the third area that has to upgrade, which is a specialty of mine. And that is your product suite, your offers need to evolve as well.
Jason Van Orden 10:10
And so that's where you need to go from only or primarily working with people, one to one, which we've already established is very limiting on your revenue capacity to having offers that allow you to serve, if those three to 510 times the amount people showed up tomorrow, you'd be like, great, I have a way to take my expertise, my knowledge, my wisdom, and help these people to reach the outcome without having to be so directly involved with my own time and energy. And that's what I help people do is create group programs create online digital courses create different types of experiences, that do allow them to reach that three or five or 10x factor, while still delivering good results in such a way that it becomes scalable for your business. And now you're not going to be limited at that low six figures that you might run into and just hit that ceiling. Now you have a business that could scale into the seven figures if you'd like or at least the high six figures,
Susan Friedmann 11:05
one of the things that I'm going to take you back a few steps, Jason, you talked about building an email list, which is so key to what you're seeing here. And I know that many of our listeners struggle with that and don't really know how to do that. What kind of tips or suggestions do you have in order to build that quality list? Because it's one thing building a list, but you want a quality list of people? Who are your potential clients?
Jason Van Orden 11:37
Yeah, absolutely. So the key here is, once you've got that positioning dialed in, so you really know, like I said, the right people that you want to get onto your email list. And you've established a platform that gets you in front of those people who can speaking or whatever that case might be or your book, it's about having the right incentive to encourage them forward to take that step of submitting their email, getting them essentially to what we call a landing page where they're exchanging their email for something of value.
Jason Van Orden 12:03
And that's that initial value exchange that they're getting from you. And now, this is often called a lead magnet, I also refer to them as hooks, sometimes, it could be something like a white paper, a case study, a free workshop, it could be a checklist that you've created, it can be a mini course that's delivered through emails or a series of a few videos or something like that. And it's about identifying, okay, well, what can I deliver to them up front, that's going to do a few things. Number one, I mentioned that a very important phrase earlier on, and that is, you need to enter the conversation that's going on in their minds right now.
Jason Van Orden 12:37
Let me just take an example here. A long time ago, there was a client I work with it was in hypno-birthing, right? And you got everyday people who find out that they're pregnant are going to immediately want to start preparing for that birth, coming up with a birth plan or whatever. But they have no idea what Hypno birthing is. But there are a lot of people out there these days are thinking, you know, I might want a different approach than the ones that I've run into before I might want something that maybe I don't have to use drugs or maybe don't even have to go to the hospital, there's an alternate way of creating a different type of experience than the ones that so often I hear that people have. That's what Hypno birthing does, if you came out of the gate, were like, Hey, let me show you like the five ways that Hypno birthing can improve your birth experience. Yeah, some people might respond to that kind of a message. But if you think more like okay, maybe they've never even heard of my solution.
Jason Van Orden 13:24
So what is top of mind for them, that's where you might have some kind of resource that essentially enters the conversation in their mind, that's probably saying, I want a different way of going about my birthing experience, I want it to be drug free as pain free as possible without taking those drugs. If possible. I'd like to avoid a cesarean section I'd like to. And once you meet them there, and you empathize with their needs, their desires, what they're trying to do the challenges, questions that they're running into, you start going like, you know, there's another way about going about this. And that's where maybe you start talking about the power of training your subconscious mind. And maybe you start then talking about hypnosis. Whereas if you just come right out of the gate, like hey, hypno-birthing, some people like what is that I don't even like hypnosis, I don't think well, you know, and then you've lost them already.
Jason Van Orden 14:10
So you need that incentive that delivers value enters the conversation that's already going on in their mind. And then start creating that path that's going to lead them towards your offer by like I said empathizing with the pain, start explaining the issues and the problems and removing any myths or misconceptions that might be in their way. If there are like, if you find a lot of people have misconceptions about hypnosis, you'd want to address that early on in that piece of content or that mini course that you give them, and then introduce, and here's this solution. And here's why I'm the best one to help you with that solution. And here's why you should consider this solution now and not put it off to some day later. And so by coming up with a piece of content that starts communicating those messages, you're both incentivizing them onto your email list while also starting to prepare them to go down that path. to signing up for whatever your offer may be working with one on one a course or whatever it
Susan Friedmann 15:04
might be. Yeah, that's something that you touched on. Is that education part that sometimes we forget that people don't know what we know. But it sounds like, you know, you're using this term. I've never heard of that, for instance, and I had to have a double listeners to what were you saying? And I was like, okay, hypnobirthing? That's a term I've never heard of. And, yes, I would need to know what that meant before I would even think about doing that or getting involved with that. So there's that educational element. And I love the idea that you talk about entering the conversation, which means you have to know where they're at. Now, how do you find that out?
Jason Van Orden 15:49
And great question. What I encourage my clients to do or anybody you know, listen to this is that you go and you have conversations with people. If you're working with people one on one, you probably have some ideas of like, what are their circumstances? What is it that motivated them to want to work with me? What were the questions they were asking when they were looking around for the right solution? So certainly, it can come from your own experience working with people, it may come from your own personal experience as well. If you are or rather, if your intended market is you in the past, which often is the case, right?
Jason Van Orden 16:21
We end up serving a market that's much like where we were, we're like, hey, I want to help people do what I have them benefit from my story, my experience or something I went through, but then ultimately going and talking to people who fit that positioning that you figured out very specifically, and go have half a dozen conversations to start with. And you're essentially want to find out the handful of things here. Number one, where are they at right now? Number two, where is it that they want to go? And number three? What's the gap in between? So why haven't they been able to reach that outcome? And then number four, like, why is that outcome important to them? And that's getting into like the deeper? Why are the benefits underneath? Like I help people launch online courses? And yes, that's the outcome that they want if they sign up for one of my programs, but then the deeper reason why is, well, maybe it's that they don't want to have to do one on one anymore.
Jason Van Orden 17:11
So now they want online courses, or they want to be able to serve more people, or they want a more steady consistent form of income, or they want to diversify their income, like these are all things I've discovered by talking to my market. So where are they at? Where do they want to go? What's the gap in between? And why is it so important to them to reach that, and when you extract that information, that's where now you know what to talk about in your content, and particularly content that goes out in that early part of your customer journey, where you're trying to gain their intention and incentivize them to get onto your email list. So I'll give you one other quick example here, again, using myself with online courses, I find so many experts, they've heard of the idea that like, Yeah, that could really help me scale, that's great.
Jason Van Orden 17:54
But it's gonna take a long time and to create all this content. And it seems like there's so many technical decisions I got to make, and then they start getting overwhelmed. And then at that point, it just gets put off, even though it's something that might interest them in the back of their mind. Well, I finally came up with a case study that would speak to those things, the conversation already going on. In their mind, I came up with a case study, like, what if I showed you a way that you could launch an online course in as little as three weeks without the tech headaches without time consuming production without a fancy sales funnel, or even setting up a course website?
Jason Van Orden 18:27
And they know and that's something that they sign up for my email list, they get that case study, the case study walks through how I did that with a client, which, you know, by going through this story is removing some of those objections they'd have, and they're starting to think, oh, maybe this is something I could do sooner rather than later, maybe it doesn't have to be as complex, he seems to have figured out a way for this to be lower cost lower risk easier, faster to get done. That's an example of me entering the conversation going on in their mind. And I learned that by having lots of conversations with people in my market. So just have them tell their stories of in tell me about the last time you tried to do X, what happened? What did you try?
Jason Van Orden 19:02
What have you tried so far? Why didn't that work for you? What's still frustrating you about that? It's less about saying, hey, if I created a course that in 10 weeks helped you go from A to Z, because then people are going to probably just, you know, they want to be nice, they're going to give you the feedback that they think you probably want to hear. You want to extract their experiences. And then you are so to speak, reading the tea leaves and going like, Ah, okay, I see what's on people's minds. Now. It's on me to create the content that will guide them, I keep using this analogy of guide them down a path until it's time for me to put my offer in front of them. And you know, I've helped them understand what they need to understand believe what they need to believe remove the stumbling blocks and the friction that might keep them from saying yes, and now the chances are much greater that they're going to be ready to go ahead and invest.
Susan Friedmann 19:46
And that's so important that sort of, I've been in the situation where I've created a product because I thought that I knew what my target audience wanted. And it didn't sell literally because cuz I didn't take the kind of advice you're, I mean, these are gems that you're now giving our listeners that to go out and literally ask planet and sell it before you actually created what I heard to the, you know, find out what they really want. Now, believe it or not, there are some of our listeners who are frightened to even go out and ask because they feel that it might make them look like well, I should know this information without having to ask you that. Do you ever come across that?
Jason Van Orden 20:40
Sometimes I do. And it's all it's an reframing of the mindset. And then also in the languaging that you use, I mean, the truth is, when I'm helping clients do this, I give them language to use, whether they're, you know, reaching out to their network, or going out on the social media to find people to interview. And it's simply a matter of, first of all, realizing yourself, it's, this is about you wanting to keep up with what the market wants and needs. And the market is always shifting. And so you know, this is all done in a spirit of you know, serving to the best of your ability. So then the messaging is framed such as like, you know, hey, I'm working on a new way to help such and such customer avatar, what do you want to call it such and such type of person who that you work with, to reach this outcome?
Jason Van Orden 21:25
I'd like to really dig in and further better understand what are the circumstances that people are dealing with right now. And I'd start with like to continually improve the way I serve my market. So I enjoy talking to people just to you know, keep me sharp and find new ways for me to offer value. And so if it's again, presented, if you frame it in your mind and present it in the messaging in a way of this is me wanting to serve this specific market, and I'm really passionate about helping them do this specific thing. And I just want to do it to the best of my ability. So hey, I'm here to listen to what it is that you particularly want and need. And I want to understand a variety of circumstances, so I can serve that, you know, variety of people within my niche. What are
Susan Friedmann 22:11
the biggest mistakes that you see people make here, Jason,
Jason Van Orden 22:16
when it comes to interviewing people,
Susan Friedmann 22:18
interviewing and then creating those digital programs, the online programs? What are some of the mistakes that you've seen your clients make, or that you yourself have made and learn from?
Jason Van Orden 22:29
Yeah, well, the first mistake would be not to do the what I call customer discovery, this market research process, and I've been there, it sounds like you've been there where you make certain assumptions just to find out like, Oh, I missed the mark somehow. So that's the first mistake. Another mistake that I see people make is that either they assume that it's gonna be a much bigger project than it's going to be, or they make it a much bigger project. By bigger, I mean, more time and resources and things, I encourage people to get something very streamlined to the market very quickly as a pilot thing.
Jason Van Orden 23:00
So the mistake that gets made is that then people spend all this time thinking they need to outline the content and create all the content, all these audios and videos and tools and things like that. And what you really need to do is you do your customer discovery, you outline your process that you use, what from what you learn, you figure out okay, here are the outcomes here, the stumbling blocks, they're running into also informing us through my work with clients. Here's where I want to take them from to this place. And you know, just get an outline of what that process is going to be, I need to teach them this and this and they need to know that and you know that that's all you just have your outline enough such that you could present it to somebody and say, I've got this offer, it consists of, say, six modules or whatever, and you sell it before you create it. And in fact, the first time you run it, I mean, yes, you might eventually want to make digital videos and everything so that people can go through it on their own.
Jason Van Orden 23:52
But the first time you sell it, you just get out there and try to sell it to half a dozen 10 people. And I just I encourage people to run it live and to say, okay, great, every module is a live call on Zoom, we're going to do a call a week for six weeks, you'll get access to the recordings of the calls. And I've run pilots like this, with no more than using zoom, a Google Drive folder that I share with the students, I put the recordings there. And then I've got some Google Docs that are like the worksheets and tools that go along with all of that, and I've gone from concept to launch. And also it helped clients do this in as little as three weeks. And I've sold these programs for multiple 1000s dollars to just because it's a pilot doesn't mean that you know you're selling this highly discounted or cheaper thing.
Jason Van Orden 24:37
So that's one of the biggest mistakes is taking months to create or to think about and you know, you don't even need to set up the course website. You know, I use Zoom Google Drive simple. So keep it streamlined. And the reason you do that is you're testing it in the marketplace. See if people actually buy it. You're bringing cash in earlier. It'll help you work closely with people to get testimonials and success stories. For this new program, you're going to, in a way, co create your course with that first cohort of people, because you're teaching it live, and you're going to hear the questions and you're gonna see where maybe you needed to add a little something. Or maybe where you lost people, or maybe a question or challenge comes up that you hadn't thought about including so then you'll bring that in as well.
Jason Van Orden 25:20
So that when you do create the final version of the course, that's much more polished and much better meets the needs of the people that you're trying to serve. And you don't spend all this time and money and resources making that just to find out how to remake some of it, or it's not exactly what people wanted. Between customer discovery and running a pilot, you take care of a lot of the mistakes that I see derail people, or lead to the sound of crickets when you release something to the market.
Susan Friedmann 25:46
I love the idea of co creation. And I know people love that too. I mean, they just want to help. And you just ask them to help and Oh, my goodness, they'll share whatever with you. Yes, this idea of CO creating is beautiful. Justin, you've talked a lot about the kind of services you and your company offer. Let's allow you to really specifically say what you can offer our listeners and how they can find out about you and what you offer.
Jason Van Orden 26:20
Absolutely, I appreciate that. Well, this idea of launching a pilot and getting something out there that's simplified, and can get some cash in the door quickly appeals to you, I have, like I said, that case study that goes through that, it's really easy to get your hands on it if you go to lean launch method dot download. So that's a web address, lean launch method download. That's what I call my process that I came up with. And that will take you to a page where you can sign up with your email and get your hands on that case study which will walk you through more of my process and what that looks like.
Jason Van Orden 26:50
And it's a real world case study with a client of mine who COVID hit and all of her classes shut down, she needed to bring cash in fast. So we launched something within three weeks, got her $10,000 in quickly. And then now she's making more money than she ever made teaching one on one. So that's a one resource that I can recommend for people. And then just to let everyone know what I love working, like I said, with thought leaders, coaches, consultants, service providers, authors who feel like they're at that point where it's like, Okay, it's time to evolve my business model into that next format that's going to allow me to amplify my income and impact even further. And so I do that by helping you to repackage your expertise into new income streams, get those to market as quickly as possible. And in the process of doing so we refine your positioning, and we refine your platform, those other two Ps that I talked about, I work with people doing that one on one, or I also run regular workshops that guide people through that process over a 10 week period
Susan Friedmann 27:46
Beautiful. And I'll put that address in the show notes. And would they get access to workshops that way as well.
Jason Van Orden 27:54
Yeah. And then you'll be on my newsletter, where I release all my latest content about the topics that we've been talking about here today. And then that's also where I announce if I have workshops. I'm also happy to hear from anybody directly, Jason at Jason Van orden, calm,
Susan Friedmann 28:08
perfect. That'll go in the show notes as well, Jason, our premium members, by the way, Jason has agreed to give us an extra something for the premium members, you'll be able to go onto that site. And well, I'm going to record that with Jason in just a second. So thank you, Jason, we always love to end the program, giving our listeners a golden nugget of information. Now what might that be?
Jason Van Orden 28:39
Well, it'd be a little bit of a mindset encouragement thing. And it's simply this I know that sometimes when we hit that inflection point and are ready to go bigger, we can start having the mind tricks going like do I really have something that's unique enough to offer that's gonna allow me to go bigger? Am I not just gonna like sound like everybody else. And the world we live in now, is I used an analogy of Spotify, where we have all this music available to us, right? We live in a world where people know, I can go to Spotify and find the exact thing I want to listen to right now and go and find whatever exact kind of videos I want on YouTube, that exact kind of show on any of these streaming, so I can find the expert that fits my exact taste. I can go on Spotify and search for jazz klezmer, which is a very esoteric genre, and there's a playlist there are groups that come up, and you are that jazz klezmer for somebody out there just because you offer an expertise that maybe myriads of other people out there offer as well. It comes back to that resonance, your values, your way of making people think your experiences, your perspective, the way you make people feel the strength that you uniquely bring to the process.
Jason Van Orden 29:43
You are that for a segment of the world out there. And I firmly believe we need more elevate more and more experts to solve all these problems and challenges that people deal with in the world. So don't let that stop you. That's the last thing I'd want to share.
Susan Friedmann 29:56
I love that and it's wonderful that you brought that jazz analogy I know that you're a maestro in jazz. So thank you for adding that. And thank you for sharing your wisdom. That was wonderful. And listeners. You have got some gems here. I know you're going to have to listen to this episode a few times to really take in everything that Jason presented because it was a boatload of super information. Thank you all for taking time out of your precious day to listen to this interview. And I sincerely hope that it sparks some ideas you can use to sell more books. Here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.